Children in society

Great way to challenge a ridiculous growth in paranoia exacerbated by the media. I’m not sure where I read it but a leading photographer commented that future generations looking back at photographs of our period will wonder why we had so few children.

Rubbish !!

This does nothing more than play up to British Photography's own lack of self esteem and paranoia in the face of Society's and the Establishments own insecurities and self loathing.

I've been undertaking photography workshops in a Primary school setting for the past three years. My concern during this time has been to deliver work not for my benefit (although i have produced some great images) but for the educational benefit of the children. To promote photography as a means of creativity and self expression by which they can understand the world around them and the constructed nature of the daily bombardment of images they are subjected to. The children I have worked with have produced some wonderful work .
As photographers we should be working to put the cameras in the hands of the children so they can make the images. Not using them for our own misguided interpretations.

misguiding interpretations?

Well, Mr. Greaves, maybe you are living in a different country or cosmos then. Issues like these MUST be published. The paranoiac state of fear, terrorism and paedophilia have affected photographers in the U.K more than any other so called 'western liberal democracy'. In other countries children play freely in public spaces NUDE and there is no fear whatsoever. Sally Mann and Robert Mapplethorpe have been accused again and again for the 'pornographic' nature of their pictures. Here you cannot even take a snapshot of a child with clothes. Not even your own child in fear of the 'jobworth' that will come and tell you that what you are doing is 'illegal'. For more you can check here
http://www.lightsensitive-maps-2010.co.uk/lightsensitive/NikosEfstratiou-01.html

Still Rubbish !

Still rubbish Nikos. You've not read what i've said Nikos and if you have you've interpreted it incorrectly.

I agree with you there is a paranoid state of fear in our so called liberal democracy and as a photographer i've been challenged many many times, but as photographers we should know the law and be familiar with what we can do and what we can't. Yes you can photograph your own children !! and there is no law to say you can't.
I do agree with you though that these issues need to be discussed and debated but lets not use children for our own political ends. When you enter a school you take in certain important responsibilities and it is the education of those children that is paramount.

I am extremely familiar with the life and work of Robert Mapplethorpe (God rest his soul ) and Sally Mann. I'm also familiar with the work of Wendy Ewald who has spent many years delivering photography workshops to children all over the world. Giving the camera to them and providing them with a voice. and a means of self expression.

I've lived in the UK for 47 years, i was born here, and i don't ever recall myself playing nude in public. In the back garden yes in a plastic paddling pool but not out on the pavement at the front of our house. I don't recall seeing anyone else either for that matter and i certainly would not want to photograph them if i did.

Like i said in my first post i've produced some wonderful images of the children i've been working with. They are images about and for them and taken with honesty and integrity but they won't see the light of day until full consent is given by each and every child's parent or guardian. That's how it should be.

sorry

I am just really sorry for your societies guys.
You WILL live in terror an paranoia.

senseless bureaucrats

Dear Andy!

Saying that there are photographers that work with children and 'giving the camera to them and providing them with a voice and a means of self expression.' is really nice, but out of context here.

The discussion is about photographing children and the law. The law, its bogus interpretation, its implementation and all the bureaucrats is the problem. Since the invention of the medium people around the world could take pictures of virtually everything and everyone, including children, without a problem. I am sure there were paedophiles then and I am sure there will be paedophiles in the future.

You put it very nicely in your previous comment. You say 'Yes you can photograph your own children !! and there is no law to say you can't.' And this is exactly where we should focus on. Although there is no law against this, there are jobworths out there that harass parents while taking snapshots of their own children.

We do not need a nanny state to tell us what to do or how to do it. We elect our representatives to serve us not to bully us. Just read some guidlines of how children should be photographed in sports days activities. It's pathetic Andy. It is like when you go to North Korea and the army give you guidlines of how to take pictures of statues and landmarks.

If your child was in participating in a sports day activity, would you mind if other parents took pictures of your child? How would you react if you wanted to take pictures of your child and keep the memories of this day in a photo album and you were told that you need consent from every parent being there just in case your pictures included other children as well?

In the U.K everything is unfortunately regulated. Even the very state of being. Our freedom is in the hands of the bureaucrats, senseless bureaucrats.

No need to be sorry

Dear Nikos

I'm not sure that my comments here are out of context. While i can see what the photographers intentions are let's just ask ourselves some questions about these particular images for a moment.
What purpose do they serve ? Who are they for ? Are they for the benefit of the children and what explanations did the photographers give to teachers, children and parents when they did the work ? Did every child and teacher get a copy of the image ? How will those children view those images in say 25 years time ? Let's assume one of those children was quite astute and asked the photographers "what's all this about then ?" Don't wish to patronize you but as you're doing an MA ( good luck with that) i'd expect you and your tutors to be having these conversations. I'll happily come down there and deliver a presentation to your group. I've just done a PGCE and i'm fully CRB checked.

Now let me address this issue about the law. You hit the nail on the head when you talk about "bogus interpretation" of the law and that is where the challenge needs to be made. Like i've said i've been approached by "jobsworths" plenty of times and when i am i stand my ground and express the wish that i hope they are as familiar with laws around photography as they seem to think they are. I am aware however that there have been many photographers and public who have been stopped taking photographers under the auspices of the Terrorism Act. See "I'm a photographer not a Terrorist" website and again this needs to be challenged when it happens. It's ridiculous ! I'm afraid the media and Establishment is largely to blame for perpetuating the paranoia around photography and photographers.

Now as for taking pictures of school sports I have to say that I would not mind in the least if other parents took photographs of my child and i would not expect to have to get permission from other parents either if their children were included in my shots. It's an easy conversation to have. If that did happen then frankly i'd not bother and put it down to the misguided attitudes and information that exist amongst many members of the public who unfortunately cannot think for themselves. Incidentally i have photographed at a School Sports Day and had no problems whatsoever. I am trusted by both school and parents. If you get hold of some guidelines on shooting at school sports days then please send them to me. I'd be happy to look at them but to be honest i think i know when to take pictures and when it's prudent not to. Common sense is a valuable thing. Also can i refer you to an article in Metro Thursday July 1 2010 by Fred Attewill entitled "It's ok to take pics at school sports day". This refers to the Information Commissioner's Office which told Headteachers it was not illegal for parents to photograph children - and said schools could not hide behind data protection 'myths'

Anyway i hope our conversation is as useful to you as it is me. I look forward to seeing your work on North Korea. When did you go ? I'm envious as i'd love to go and experience it for myself instead of reading about it in our newspapers. You can't believe everything they tell you can you.

photography and children

Dear Andy,

The conversation is more than usefull and necessary I would say. That's why I believe that initiatives like the one taken by the BJP is more than important.

As far as N. Korea is concerned, I have not been there myself unfortunately. Sorry, if I got this message across.

Now to answer to the questions you pose at the beginning of your comment.

What purpose do the pictures serve? I think Anna and Samantha very clearly state this in their website. They say 'The ethical issues and paranoia surrounding the laws of photographing children in today’s society is confusing and somewhat farcical. At what point will the photography of children be completely forbidden?'
For me as a viewer their work is very contemporary, raises political questions and allegorically shows the facts surrounding the photographing of children. If you do a small research online you will find how many parents have been harassed or been stopped while taking pictures of their own children.

'Who are the pictures for?' As a photographer you do not need to have a pre-determined target group. For me the pictures of Anna and Samantha are for the British society. Their work reflect and are a mirror of the state of british society today regarding photographing children.

Why should the pictures be at the benefit of the children Andy? The images by no means exploit the children. We, the viewers only see their back and the pictures do not show their identities.

If they got a copy or not, I cannot answer. However, in 25 years time, it will be interesting to see what they have to say regarding the images. To answer the question we will have to wait and see what will be the relationship between photography and children then.

One picture tells a story,

One picture like this tells a story, and tells it very well, and makes its point with gravitas.

many images, all it seems much the same sounds rather like the photographer has run out of ideas, and dilutes the drama of the initial idea.

Use the idea and run with it, but just copying your self many times over does not add any more to the story (IMHO).

Brilliant initial idea though. :-)

A good telling off

I was recently told off by an onlooker as a I took a photo of a random child feeding a dog at a market. Didn’t really think of any implications just thought it was a cute photo. They seemed to think what I was doing was illegal, were they right.

Not really too up on the rights of photographers, is there any resource that I can look at to get more information?

A brick in the wall

Once again thanks for the debate and i hope i have given you as much to think about as you have me with this topic. As you probably realise by now I have my reservations about this particular piece of work as i do about a lot of contemporary photography in the UK at the moment. I'm beginning to think that this whole damn New Objectivity train is just too full and there ain't even no standin space no more. Gettin so a photographer can't breathe. And another thing, just who is driving this train.

Anyway you'll be pleased to know i've been to Bakewell Show today, just me and the OM1-n with a few rolls of Neopan 400 and i got no trouble, just a bit of light hearted banter from some old boys from Skegness on a stand who gave me one of them eco bags loaded with goodies and a suspicious look from a bloke on a "throw the balls in the bucket and win a giant soft toy". Probably thought i was from the IR !
Anyway i'm trying to do my own work/ take on this merry old country of ours.

Incidentally the funny thing with this talk we been having is i did a similar thing myself a few weeks back even before this work was put on BJP. Take a look at my blog
http://andygreaves.wordpress.com/ for image and comments.

What amuses me is that...

For all Andy's objections to this body of work, he's doing a good job of trading off the back of it.

I now know more about him and what he's been up to than I know about the two young ladies featured in the original article.

Children's Faces

I once had to photograph teachers doing their job; to promote the profession and encourage recruitment. No faces of children were to be recognisable. A government department commissioned the job. It's visual impact was certainly surreal.

What amuses me

Iain
And let that be a lesson to you.

There's a good chance that the two young ladies who did the work have been reading the discussion here, especially between Nikos and myself. We have only been giving it the rigour that it deserves. Work like this raises a lot of questions and assumptions should rightly be tested.

And here we thought you were punk rock.

I just find this prohibition to be extremely bizarre. Other than certain tribal societies in the hinterland of New Guinea, is there any place in the world where taking a photograph in a public place is forbidden?

Doesn't this prohibition imply that every Briton who even looks at a child is probably thinking about molesting it? I mean...really...can't you guys keep your hands off the kids? The rest of the world is disgusted by your behavior. Although not really because we think you're a bunch of perverts; more that we think you're a sinking ship of complete fools and wankers. Banning photos of children, what's next?! Hey, I know. Make the little tykes wear burkas!

when is it going to stop

it started with takeing peoples souls then health and safty then terrorists now pedios..so whats next.... are these people just trying to justify their jobs so they dont lose them ,its has got beyond stupid and pathetic in this country now,, yes protection of childern.. but this is takeing the piss, soon they will have to take down all the security cameras down and video in shop windows and shops just in case there is a questionable person looking.